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Author Topic: Busy as heck working on 7.0...  (Read 76371 times)

Offline Justin

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Re: Busy as heck working on 7.0...
« Reply #60 on: August 23, 2013, 02:51:02 PM »
BTW, if you're curious, one of the things I'm struggling with is the HDMI overscan, that really should not even be present but is on most consumer HDTVs. That's why I mark the "safe area" for 16:9 as well as 4:3. We all know why overscan is necessary on CRT displays, but on fixed-pixel displays it's just nonsense.

Here's a really good article that explains it in detail:

http://www.engadget.com/2010/05/27/hd-101-overscan-and-why-all-tvs-do-it/

I'm using that as a reference; the "16:9 Safe" area is exactly 10 pixels from the outside edge. Crap, now that I think about it - in the editor it should be 1/3 of that... back to the drawing board (almost literally)... I'm pretty good with math overall, but it's easy to forget to scale everything... I know I'm good at math, as I don't gamble or buy lottery tickets ever... ;)
-- Justin Nelson, CEO
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   http://www.vdj.net/

Offline Fabio

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Re: Busy as heck working on 7.0...
« Reply #61 on: August 23, 2013, 04:22:58 PM »
Quote
I swear, every day I have to ban at least 1 or 2 spambots from the forums

Shouldn't I be getting those? or at least a copy of the email?  I know since you made a moderator I've only had to do it twice and both of those times I got a notification someone had posted but I have not gotten any since...is there something I need to do to my profile to make sure I get them? After all that was the reason you made me moderator, so I could help you deal with those.

Quote
http://www.engadget.com/2010/05/27/hd-101-overscan-and-why-all-tvs-do-it/

Wow, I had no idea...but now I know why one of my TVs does it.  It put those black and white dots at the top but only on certain channels or maybe certain programs...not sure now.  Anyway, I have seen the overscan setting on my directv box, but I always thought it was related to the fit of the screen (I guess in some ways it is).  It so happens that we use the same box for living room area as the one for our bedroom instead of getting a second box.  The second box is shared between our extra bedroom and the backyard man cave.  Anyway, the one in the living room is not the same same size as the one on the bedroom and different brands too.  The one in the bedroom will do this line thing...and I've been able to get rid of it with the directv setting but when I'm watching the TV in the living room part of the picture (most noticeable) at the bottom is cut off.  So if I'm watching something that has text at the bottom, it gets cut off, so I have to go back to no overscan...actually, now that I think about it they probably call it TV Fit...or something along those lines.  Now, I know I know it has to be adjusted at the TV, not at the source....thanks!  Hopefully this TV has a way to adjust it.  I just didn't know they were related...

Thanks for sharing that article Justin! I would never had known...in fact I had given up trying to adjust it and just leave it with the lines showing so that my TV in the living room works correctly.  I suppose if I was using separate boxes I would never have learned this

 :)



Fabio Q.
Shooting Star Karaoke

Offline Justin

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Re: Busy as heck working on 7.0...
« Reply #62 on: August 23, 2013, 06:03:52 PM »
Quote
Shouldn't I be getting those? or at least a copy of the email?

I will look into the settings on that. I get a notification every time a "new member" joins, and lately 99% of the time that "new member" ends up spamming with Viagra ads and what not... I don't know if this is a setting you have to set up, or something I have to, to make sure you get the "new member" notifications...

Quote
It put those black and white dots at the top but only on certain channels or maybe certain programs...

My favorite thing from the article is the Football example. The quite dots at the top are actually code that they use to determine where to put the yellow line on the field - remember that's not official and is completely generated on-the-fly by the network. That little bit of coding is how they pass that information from the camera to the video processors...

Just like in the "old days", things like Close Captioning were encoded as black & white dots (not technically "pixels" since it was analog) in the VBI (Vertical Blanking Interval). In other words, parts of the picture that the viewer would (or should) never see. When digital HDTV came out, the tv stations continued this practice, hence, TV manufacturers still make the TV overscan to "hide" these items. With my DVR hooked up via VGA cable, I have no overscan, and I do occasionally see these "extra" bits of information...

Anyway the only reason I'm researching this is that, when you are designing your Karaoke screen in VDJ, the overscan that almost all TVs do by default has to be taken into account. I now have the "safe area" marker for 16:9 set just four pixels from each side (which translates to 12 pixels on the actual screen). As long as you keep your elements within the green dotted-line box, it should be viewable. The 4:3 box is a little more inside, since CRT tvs are unpredictable and sometimes overscan more than they need to. I also changed that dotted-line box to Cyan (the yellow conflicted with the singer's text).

Screenshot of the most recent variant of the Editor window is attached. Note I changed the TV graphic, and the editor is slightly bigger (representing exactly 1/3 of the full rendered karaoke screen)...

Still working on a few things, but hopefully tomorrow I'll have it actually rendering the graphics based on the editor window's settings...

[attachment deleted by admin]
-- Justin Nelson, CEO
   Next Generation Software, Inc.
   http://www.vdj.net/

Offline Justin

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Re: Busy as heck working on 7.0...
« Reply #63 on: August 23, 2013, 06:10:36 PM »
Note that I changed it to allow either a text list of upcoming singers (up to 10), pictures (up to 3), or BOTH (they are now check boxes rather than "radio buttons").

Also note - I didn't realize I could in fact fit a QR code, 3 upcoming singers' pictures, and the actual Karaoke with header/footer text all on the screen at the same time until I created this editor. Now I realize how much I was limiting the possibilities by sticking with a 4:3 aspect ratio. Those extra pixels make a HUGE difference. And I've had an HDTV since '06, when I got my Vizio (which is still my living room TV slash computer monitor :) )  You'd think I would have considered this years ago. I actually get a little upset inside when a show (usually a rerun) is aired in 4:3 (black bars) when I know for a fact it was shot in HD widescreen. Yet my own program is doing exactly that...

Anyway problem solved and hopefully tomorrow I'll have a BETA ready. I'm dying to have you guys test the web app, as well as the karaoke screen editor (I will expect screenshots or photos of the outcome :) )

As for Ron - I agree, I've been waiting for his input as well. No wonder he goes by VacationGuy :P Actually he did post recently about some of the things we've been talking about. He's a busy guy I suppose (as we all are)...
-- Justin Nelson, CEO
   Next Generation Software, Inc.
   http://www.vdj.net/

Offline Justin

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Re: Busy as heck working on 7.0...
« Reply #64 on: August 23, 2013, 06:18:29 PM »
Just have to point out that it bothers me very much that the TV stations put out a 720p video signal, based on 720p source material, but resampled so that you're actually seeing 700 scan lines resized to 720. Then, most 720p TV sets are actually 1366x768, so those 720 lines are being resampled yet again to 768 to fit the display. Note that most TV stations are 720 (not 1080), especially any station that has sub-channels (the bandwidth is shared between all 26.x channels). Here in the Chicago broadcast area, the only channel that is full 1080 is CBS channel 2. Unfortunately my Linux DVR has a hard time decoding it in realtime lol... I get some 30+ other channels that are 720 or 480...

Anyway the resampling issue kinda reminds me of Windows resampling the audio unnecessarily... so a good HDTV program or movie is being resampled (at least) two times before you see it. If you've ever watched a Blu-Ray disc on a true 1080 TV with no overscan, it's absolutely phenomenal. It's pixel-for-pixel exactly what it was intended to be (a friend of mine has a Sharp Aquos and PS3, and watching movies at his house is just like being in the theater, except we can pause, smoke, & drink ;) )
-- Justin Nelson, CEO
   Next Generation Software, Inc.
   http://www.vdj.net/

Offline Justin

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Re: Busy as heck working on 7.0...
« Reply #65 on: August 23, 2013, 06:37:09 PM »
Just so you see the above pic w/o the "edit" mode (and yes, there's no background picture right now)...

[attachment deleted by admin]
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Offline Fabio

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Re: Busy as heck working on 7.0...
« Reply #66 on: August 23, 2013, 07:39:44 PM »
Quote
My favorite thing from the article is the Football example. The quite dots at the top are actually code that they use to determine where to put the yellow line on the field - remember that's not official and is completely generated on-the-fly by the network. That little bit of coding is how they pass that information from the camera to the video processors...

This is exactly the stuff I'm getting on the TV at my house except it's usually when we're watching some crime show or something.  I don't remember if it show up during football games too...although I seem to remember seeing it when watching NHL hockey.  They probably use the same technology for the adventising on the glass at each end of the goal (behind the goalie).  I hadn't realized it until this past season when I was able make it to more games.  I hadn't thought about when I was watching on TV but having it in the live game would probably block the view of the people at the game.

Quote
I don't know if this is a setting you have to set up, or something I have to, to make sure you get the "new member" notifications...

I'll look when I'm done posting this message but remember looking at the settings recently where I noticed I wasn't getting those notifications...that's where I found the place to add my picture...but I didn't see any sort of setting for that...

Quote
The 4:3 box is a little more inside, since CRT tvs are unpredictable and sometimes overscan more than they need to.

Now I understand why I had to play around with the CDG screen so much before when I was hosting at this bar that only had CRT screens - this is a few years ago.  It got to a point where I'd just drag the little CDG screen to the TV and manually enlarge it to fit the TV as best I could by dragging the corners. At the second bar where I'd occasionally host when the regular karaoke host wasn't available, I'd have no trouble even though they also had a CRT TV...but difference size/brand...

Quote
so a good HDTV program or movie is being resampled (at least) two times before you see it

No wonder digital TV is slower that analog...I remember before I upgraded my last CRT TV, specially when we were watching sports...the HD TVs would be a couple of seconds behind the CRT TV.  I remember a particular night when we order one of the Paquiao boxing matchest and we invited a large group of friends to come party and watch the fight...because the smokers wanted to be outside in backyard (before we build the man cave) I used bring out an HD TV and the large screen CRT in living room and I'd back and forth between the groups.  When I was in back we would hear cheering from inside the house and we'd wonder why they're cheering and a second later we'd realize it's because someone had struck a good punch. Yeah I do have a blu-ray and it is awesome to watch movies on it.

Anyway, the last pic looks great!  I can't wait to begin using it.

Question...would you ever consider splitting the Music database from the other windows?  Since I'm going to start using it, I kinda like the idea to be able too see it at the same time the singers queue.

Oh look at the time... it's time for me to leave the office and go host at the bar... :)
Fabio Q.
Shooting Star Karaoke

Offline Justin

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Re: Busy as heck working on 7.0...
« Reply #67 on: August 23, 2013, 08:20:26 PM »
Actually the delay on digital TV has nothing (or very little) to do with the resampling, that's done pretty much on the fly. However, if you've ever encoded MPEG video, you know that it takes a lot of processor time. So HD (and even SD digital channels) have to take the analog video signal, and encode it to MPEG before sending it over the air.

The last Cubs game I went to, there's this store across the street (one of many) selling Cubs gear, and we were there buying some new Cubs hats. The store owner was telling us that ever since everything went digital, he now knows when to look at the TV. He could hear the crowd at Wrigley Field get all excited, and about 6 seconds later the excitement would be on the TV. So he never missed a thing...

But that delay is inherent in the way digital TV works. It's being encoded, probably by some rack-mount unit dedicated to the task, to MPEG-2 video, which is what they standardized on for DTV (same encoding as a DVD... makes set-top-boxes cheaper to make since MPEG-2 decoder chips are easily available and cheap as hell from China). Had they gone with an MPEG-4 encoding, they could fit nearly 10x as many channels in the same bandwidth, but the boxes (and TVs and DVRs and etc etc) would cost more to manufacture. None the less, we still get a lot more channels in the same spectrum, and opened up a lot of bands (eg, our no-longer-legal wireless mics) by getting away from Analog video broadcasts...

It's kinda fun living in this transitional period where something as basic and everyday as television was forced to change by the government. I was against the whole idea at first, but now I just love HDTV. And I watch OTA on an antenna with an ATI HDTV Wonder tuner card in my Linux box, with the MythTV DVR... I've been using this setup for about 4 years, and can't even imagine paying for television now (anything not OTA is online somewhere)...

Anyway I think I'm on break, been at this since 6:30AM Central, with a break here and there... ready to watch some free HDTV, have a couple beers and get some sleep... :)  At least tomorrow, I'm not stuck on any math or other issues (figured out what I was head-aching over earlier), and it's just a matter of finishing up some code. So hopefully you'll have a BETA by the end of tomorrow :)

Edit: the main reason they use an old but proven standard (MPEG-2) is that, like MP3 audio, it takes a lot of processing and mathematics to ENcode, but very little resources to DEcode. So let the TV stations/content producers do the work, and let your set-top box/portable device do a relatively small amount of work to play back the audio/video. It's this kind of thinking that made things like the iPod possible, with a decent battery life. I still have my Nano 5th gen from 2008, still holds a charge and has 24 hours playback time... but MP3 has been around for over 20 years now (that's why the patents have expired)...
« Last Edit: August 23, 2013, 08:50:44 PM by Justin »
-- Justin Nelson, CEO
   Next Generation Software, Inc.
   http://www.vdj.net/

Offline Justin

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Re: Busy as heck working on 7.0...
« Reply #68 on: August 23, 2013, 08:26:16 PM »
Quote
Question...would you ever consider splitting the Music database from the other windows?

Hm... so you are already using the "Classic VDJ" mode where it's not integrated in the main VDJ window... but you want to be able to separate the individual tabs...

That's a lot more work than you might think unfortunately. It actually took a lot of work just to separate the windows for the few users who prefer it that way (you were not the only one; I got a lot of emails from users of 5.3 who really preferred the separate windows). To break out the music DB... I mean it's not impossible, but for right now it's not going to be on my immediate TODO list...

At some point I may work on making all of the little tabs able to be dragged out into their own window (like the tabs in Chrome on Windows). But the way I wrote that, it's just not possible just yet. It *can* be done and I will make note to work toward this in the future... Maybe 7.1? :)
-- Justin Nelson, CEO
   Next Generation Software, Inc.
   http://www.vdj.net/

Offline Justin

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Re: Busy as heck working on 7.0...
« Reply #69 on: August 23, 2013, 08:31:33 PM »
Quote
I'm using that as a reference; the "16:9 Safe" area is exactly 10 pixels from the outside edge. Crap, now that I think about it - in the editor it should be 1/3 of that...

Okay now I'm really banging my head on the desk... I got the "10 pixel" figure from the image of John McCain. But of course that picture is NOT to scale lol! So 10 pixels on that shrunken-down image is probably like 30 pixels on the actual TV.

I'm going to have to research and find out exactly how much overscan you get on HDMI, at least on average. I know the TV stations know this, because they do align score bars and scrolling news text right to the edge of the screen, so they obviously know exactly how much is being "cut off". In my case I'm using VGA, and my laptop doesn't even have HDMI output to test this with. Hm... the DroidX does, maybe I could use that with a test pattern image to determine the exact cutoff... at least on my particular TV. Gonna have to look for a mini-HDMI cable on eBay now (plus it's an excuse for another  "toy" purchase...)

My laptop does have S-Video and I have a couple 27" CRT TVs around (one in my work area), so testing 4:3 overscan is easy. Just need an HDMI setup to test with...

And I just finalized on the editor screen with 4 pixels per edge, meaning 12 on the actual output screen... which is probably not enough. Ugh! I guess I'll be sleep-coding again tonight :)
« Last Edit: August 23, 2013, 08:37:28 PM by Justin »
-- Justin Nelson, CEO
   Next Generation Software, Inc.
   http://www.vdj.net/

Offline Justin

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Re: Busy as heck working on 7.0...
« Reply #70 on: August 23, 2013, 08:41:08 PM »
Okay so it's 5% period, standardized. I just looked it up. So for 720 that works out to 18 pixels top and bottom, and 32 left and right... no big deal, at least now I know... and on my editor screen that would be 1/3 of that - so 6px top/bottom, and ~10px left/right... so I have some work to do tomorrow.

I have an appointment tomorrow but after that I'll tackle this and try to get a BETA out for you guys (guy? lol) to test out :)
« Last Edit: August 23, 2013, 08:55:17 PM by Justin »
-- Justin Nelson, CEO
   Next Generation Software, Inc.
   http://www.vdj.net/

Offline Justin

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Re: Busy as heck working on 7.0...
« Reply #71 on: August 23, 2013, 09:58:42 PM »
I know I'm posting a lot, but one last thing then I'm going to bed... I have modified the search algorithm, and anything within quotation marks is now seen as a single "word". Only applies to "match all words any order", since the other "exact phrase" option will match them only in that order anyway...

So your example of:

Quote
Does it still do quote searches such as "9 to 5" dolly?

Without quotes I get 23 results, and with them I get 16. I can see a million reasons this feature should be here... and it works flawlessly. Even as you type, as soon as you type that first quote, everything after that is considered one word (until the end quote is typed). So you can effectively get an "exact phrase" search just by quoting it. Much easier to implement than I thought - took just a couple minutes.

I will leave the server online tonight while I get some sleep, so feel free to try this quoted search feature out (it automatically applies to the app since it uses the same search algorithm and code within VDJ).

Just tested (and fixed a bug where it didn't like passing quotes in the HTML), and for Karaoke-Only search I get 4 results with "9 to 5" quoted, and 10 results without the quotes... so far so good.

Either go to http://vdj.net/dj/jman/ or just snap the QR code attached (I admit, I am having way too much fun with QR codes now that I know how to generate them :) )

Edit: You'll note I added a "welcome" page, another template that is editable by the DJ. It's the first page they'll see before going on to search.

[attachment deleted by admin]
« Last Edit: August 23, 2013, 10:14:33 PM by Justin »
-- Justin Nelson, CEO
   Next Generation Software, Inc.
   http://www.vdj.net/

Offline vcationguy

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Re: Busy as heck working on 7.0...
« Reply #72 on: August 24, 2013, 04:24:51 AM »
Hi Justin,

Man, you're doing some great stuff with 7.0.  For what it's worth, I agree with what you guys have been saying about being able to show pics of the next 3 singers on one side and a list of the next 10 or whatever on the other side.  Also like the idea of their name under the pic and not showing the pic as they sing.  Fabio is right, that can be distracting.

I found a way to change my VCD's to files that should be able to play on your video player.  I'll email one to you so you can make sure it works with what you're doing.  I think it will work well.

Have a great weekend and do something fun (ok, I know this stuff IS fun for you, but get some rest too! lol)

Ron

Offline Fabio

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Re: Busy as heck working on 7.0...
« Reply #73 on: August 24, 2013, 10:16:49 AM »
Justin ... no big deal with the music tab. And personally that would be the only one I'd want to split away.

I was hosting last night and I only got a chance to do the "9 to 5" and that works as expected. I'm glad it wasn't too complicated to implement.

Ron, welcome back! We were wondering what had happened to you! As you can see Justin has been busy...fyi...I don't think this beta will have video playback yet. Justin wants to test the Web request feature and the new cdg window with the editor.



Fabio Q.
Shooting Star Karaoke

Offline Justin

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Re: Busy as heck working on 7.0...
« Reply #74 on: August 24, 2013, 10:59:45 AM »
Yeah, I'm focusing on the karaoke screen editor right now. Video playback will hopefully come soon, I haven't yet dug into the VLC player SDK or what can be done with the source code, but I will tackle that soon...

I'm not sure I'll have a beta today. I am still tinkering with the editor, which is almost done as far as the interface, but my head's not ready to rewrite the Karaoke display code right now (a little under the weather today).

On a side note, I have been trying to get ahold of Comcast and am having absolutely no luck. I'm being told by a recording that due to high call volume, they are too busy and call back another day. Great customer service. I need them to put my modem into bridge mode, disabling the router/wifi function entirely, so I can actually test using different ports with the app. I can't do that right now because this modem's built-in router is a hunk of junk (though it's fast as all hell)...
-- Justin Nelson, CEO
   Next Generation Software, Inc.
   http://www.vdj.net/